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 Post subject: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:11 pm
Posts: 148
serious topic here......lets look at this card......

its a disenchant....
its a spell block.....
it can be used on creatures....
it can be used on buildings.....
it has 3 tokens meaning it can block 3 spells or enchants all with 1 single card........

lets look at creature control......
entangle....2 flux
lysis.....4 flux
sunburst....3 flux
total.....9 flux

anti magic shell.....1 flux

need i say anymore? i dont think i will...im simply going to let you decide for yourself the message im tryin to send here.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:20 am
Posts: 235
Just want to say that I like the card as it is. One of the few cards that can counter so-good-its-almost-boring-cards like posession and training. And since it is a defensive card its not allways good.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:47 am
Posts: 150
Monyx, are you merely saying the card is strong? Or are you saying it should be nerfed? It's not the same thing. Specifically, I agree with the first statement, but not the second.

[Note that my position applies to the meta-game in its current state. It could change if the meta-game shifts.]

As I've noted in my response to Zblader's thread about "Really Strong vs. OP", cards don't get nerfed because they're strong, they get nerfed because they're bad for the game: either because they're plain unfun to play with/against, or because they invalidate more strategies then they support.

I don't know that AMS is an especially unfun card, so what about strategies supported/invalidated?

Right now, I can't think of a single strategy that's invalidated by AMS. When I think of a new deck, I never say: "Oh this deck can't work, AMS just destroys it". This is partly because of the nature of the card, which just doesn't invalidate whole strategies (most decks don't revolve around creature removal), and partly because of it's (non)prevalence - how likely are you to run into a deck with AMS?

To see what strategies this card supports, we have to look at its dual role:
1. AMS is a retroactive countermeasure to figure enchantments.
2. AMS is a preventive measure against anything that hits your figures.

In role 1, AMS can be a powerful card. You spend 2-3 flux to Entangle/Encase my creature, I spend 1 flux to get it back into action. However, countermeasure cards usually cost less then the threats they're created to counter. That's because they are conditional: sometimes there will be nothing to counter (i.e., no figure-enchantments), and the card is useless.

As an example of this, note how Entangle itself costs less then most creatures it will be played on. That's because sometimes you'll have no use for it.
[Lysis is an exception: it costs as much as most targets. But Lysis is hardly conditional: there's almost always something to play it on]

Now let's take a look at role 2. This role is a lot less conditional. While some opponents won't play anti-creature enchantments, most of them will have some way of dealing with creatures (Lysis, Sunburst, etc.). However, if I play AMS on my creature as a preventive measure, I've spent 1 flux and a card, and you haven't spent anything. Most often, you'll just take your Lysis/Sunburst/whatever and use it on something else (unless you have enough removal to kill each and every one of my creatures, which is rare).

So when does AMS shine? When I have one target that you absolutely must kill, and I use AMS to protect that. This is the deck archetype that AMS makes possible. However, I can't say that I've seen a lot of these decks around (compared to rush, buildings, DL...). My Rithig deck and Atahualpa's Exalted One are the only ones I can think of. It seems to me that this archetype needs help, not a nerf.

Now, if this "one big creature" archetype becomes dominant, to the extent that people are forced to either play it, or play specific countermeasures, I would definitely be willing to reconsider my position.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Posts: 148
@ Cavetroll yea agree its a good card....if i were playing ci Im sure i wouldnt leave home without it.

however liking a card has lil to do with balance. I like the card too and it is a good counter card.....my point is that im not gonna say its op or that it should be nerfed...but i will say it is unbalanced.....not sure you would call that op or not......i think it is as good as arcane adjustment and maybe better in some cases.......and yes arcane adjustment is also better in some cases but shell is a common while arcane is an uncommon....

so to sum up what u said....it counters stuff really good and you like it.....
to sum up what i said....it can potentially nullify at least 6 flux of cards for 1 flux...that is at least.....can very easily be more if it were cards like lysis which is 4 flux alone

so flux wise the card is unbalanced....i dont really suggest that cards should be nerfed very often...... but any card that can counter 12 flux worth of cards (3 lysis) for 1 flux seems a bit unbalanced...i dont think the card should cost as much as lysis however...i think if it cost more than 1 flux it might be a bit more balanced. Even Queeshai has suggested many times that arcane adjustment might be op....or at least really strong...(not saying it should be nerfed) when u compare the cards ams is easily as good as arcane.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:37 am
Posts: 359
I hate how AMS prevents me from playing Defender of Elkins on my Paladin of Xosa!

That is all... am not going to argue either way.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:17 pm 
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By the way, AMS can be cancelled with Tentacles or Course of Destiny for free ;)
Tailwinds and Electric Storm: 3 flux to remove AMS.
Draknor's Chain, Belligerent Dryad: 6 flux to remove AMS.

And probably missed some cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:23 pm 
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Altren wrote:
By the way, AMS can be cancelled with Tentacles or Course of Destiny for free ;)
Tailwinds and Electric Storm: 3 flux to remove AMS.
Draknor's Chain, Belligerent Dryad: 6 flux to remove AMS.

And probably missed some cards.


Disenchant.
Mystic Feedback.
+ other enchantment killers.

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I agree with Keyser, and that's what I'm planning to implement actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:18 pm 
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It seems weird to me that abilities of enchantments count as well. Also with draknor's chain or course of destiny you need to have one half die first since trying to cast in on a figure with the shell gets both halves cancelled. Anti magic shell does not disable any enchantments that get on the figure without targeting it (possible with flash powder, black plague and impure impulses). It also disappears when it runs out of tokens but the card doesn't mention this.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:13 pm 
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Long story short, I'm seeing the gist of AMS shell as an anti enchant enchant (no typos or puns intended) that is versatile but also weak in some ways. What i'm wondering here is, does it really have strong enough counters? Tenctacles and Course are good, but course needs a dead creature or disenchant to cancel the link, and Tentacles are a simple disenchant/movement away.

Enchant Killers:
Nature Balance - Takes longer to pull off than AMS.
Feedback - See Nature Balance.
Stag - It's a creature (and not to mention a beast) for god's sake.

AMS seems slightly OP IMHO, because it's counters take a while to pull out, and each counter has a counter for it. Reducing Tokens to 2 might be appropriate because of all that extra flux you simply block with just 1 flux for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Magic Shell
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:11 pm
Posts: 148
hmm so this card is still too good....3 counters in 1....as if that wasnt good enough it makes weather vane almost unplayable. i dont think it should be able to target builings. it only costs 1 flux.

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