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first impressions
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Author:  cylone [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  first impressions
..of some changes:

The domain thingy is a bit of a weird prospect, while its nice to be able to combine the toys for some fun combos, its also ridiculouslly easy to have epic veterans, blind assasins and gratbows mucking about all at the same time, as fast as (and possibly faster than) the opponent can reach his 3 domain (if playing a normal deck).
All the while being supported by lyssis, disenchants and charm...

Should be noted that a hadracks throne is autoinclude in EVERY deck that has 3domain card.



Also black is unstoppable...they can currently do most of the stuff others can, at least as good as them and plenty much better. (still only vulnerable to enchantments, but hey so is everyone else other than dwarves) Dont forget it has flux speed and recyclying.

ELEMENTAL
Sphere of Radiance... yeez just make it go back to what it was, please. Pretty please. Really. 5hp makes it or breaks it. Its really a rather lackluster building (ie. nothing to write home about) 5hp AND 2vision puts it at pretty darn fine. 4hp and 2 vision relegates it to just narrow Vapor Mahal decks.

Dusk Efreet can now be used as a 1turn scout which is good, however its primary role (anti-aircraft :) is fail. Insta-gibbed by frost wurm, barkskin dragon (okay the dragon maybe should). Since he can really only attack 5 to 6 creatures he's probably the worst crature in the game as he fails in his role of air-superiority.

Fire Intersection would be a lot more reliable/usefull if the little bouncy balls came out in an adjacent space and not all over the place. 2 of mine havent seen play since i got them :(

SYLVAN
Beacon of celador is more reasonable now.

Falcon gets applause.

Light of day should really just cost 1, or have draw a card.

Return Pine Ent to 4 health, thats just mean...

DL
With all the hp lowering Foul Obelisk should be nerfed a bit as well. With the changes its currently the best building in its weight class. (this one i'm least advocating)

Carrion is now a bit too powerfull, there are always corpses lying around, actually 90% of the time right next to your base, just next to that altar of ix. It has ridiculous synergy with Ancient battlefield and Death mark(very powerfull underused spell) (throw in hollows eve to basically shut down most non-black decksfor even more nastyness). At the very least it is a 1/3 falcon (of course slower to put into action).
This is probably the best flyer after barkskin dragon.

Claimed with Blood......? seriously....? what the heck are non-legion decks to do to a corpse? stare at it? (oh yeah the sylvan have that silly spell no one ever uses. Ever. With good reason too <- another card that should be seriously upped in power if its ever to see play)


BEARDED SCOTSMEN
Storm factory, a bit harsh with the domain cost, maybe it should just be reworked as a counterpart to magnetic beacon (everything the same just push instead of pull)?

Lava blister... i just noticed its a rare :( still too crappy (especially if you use it on your creature cause it kills it off too) Maybe let the creature carrying it survive, or alternatively make it pumpable as well 2flux=1token

Frost Wyrm... just right

Any chance of helping Dag Cannon out?
Author:  RedFlag [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: first impressions
cylone wrote:
..of some changes:

The domain thingy is a bit of a weird prospect, while its nice to be able to combine the toys for some fun combos, its also ridiculouslly easy to have epic veterans, blind assasins and gratbows mucking about all at the same time, as fast as (and possibly faster than) the opponent can reach his 3 domain (if playing a normal deck).
All the while being supported by lyssis, disenchants and charm...

Should be noted that a hadracks throne is autoinclude in EVERY deck that has 3domain card.



Also black is unstoppable...they can currently do most of the stuff others can, at least as good as them and plenty much better. (still only vulnerable to enchantments, but hey so is everyone else other than dwarves) Dont forget it has flux speed and recyclying.

ELEMENTAL
Sphere of Radiance... yeez just make it go back to what it was, please. Pretty please. Really. 5hp makes it or breaks it. Its really a rather lackluster building (ie. nothing to write home about) 5hp AND 2vision puts it at pretty darn fine. 4hp and 2 vision relegates it to just narrow Vapor Mahal decks.

Dusk Efreet can now be used as a 1turn scout which is good, however its primary role (anti-aircraft :) is fail. Insta-gibbed by frost wurm, barkskin dragon (okay the dragon maybe should). Since he can really only attack 5 to 6 creatures he's probably the worst crature in the game as he fails in his role of air-superiority.

Fire Intersection would be a lot more reliable/usefull if the little bouncy balls came out in an adjacent space and not all over the place. 2 of mine havent seen play since i got them :(

SYLVAN
Beacon of celador is more reasonable now.

Falcon gets applause.

Light of day should really just cost 1, or have draw a card.

Return Pine Ent to 4 health, thats just mean...

DL
With all the hp lowering Foul Obelisk should be nerfed a bit as well. With the changes its currently the best building in its weight class. (this one i'm least advocating)

Carrion is now a bit too powerfull, there are always corpses lying around, actually 90% of the time right next to your base, just next to that altar of ix. It has ridiculous synergy with Ancient battlefield and Death mark(very powerfull underused spell) (throw in hollows eve to basically shut down most non-black decksfor even more nastyness). At the very least it is a 1/3 falcon (of course slower to put into action).
This is probably the best flyer after barkskin dragon.

Claimed with Blood......? seriously....? what the heck are non-legion decks to do to a corpse? stare at it? (oh yeah the sylvan have that silly spell no one ever uses. Ever. With good reason too <- another card that should be seriously upped in power if its ever to see play)


BEARDED SCOTSMEN
Storm factory, a bit harsh with the domain cost, maybe it should just be reworked as a counterpart to magnetic beacon (everything the same just push instead of pull)?

Lava blister... i just noticed its a rare :( still too crappy (especially if you use it on your creature cause it kills it off too) Maybe let the creature carrying it survive, or alternatively make it pumpable as well 2flux=1token

Frost Wyrm... just right

Any chance of helping Dag Cannon out?


As to your claimed with blood- park a Silver Stagg next to it, or disenchant it, or use gossamer palace on it, or nullify it by juxtaposing hexes with that elemental spell. Sure, it's powerful- but there are available counters.

Altar of Ix needs to cost less or gain back a hitpoint, preferably both.
Author:  Tryste [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: first impressions
Glimpse of Greatness - needs revision, utility very weak now
Caravan of Dreams - add "Cannot be the target of spells or abilities"
Fairy Emissary - remove flux cost from ability
Ivory Spire/Eye of Varex - re-examine domain costs to both
Greening - make +1/+1
Elder Ent - require retooling to see light of day
Decomposition - reduce flux cost
Light of Day - reduce flux cost/add utility or duration
Wider Woods - reduce domain requirement to two
Examine - drawing/discarding optons as too many discard options are recyclable while draw options are limited (Astridian Forum should be 2 flux.)
Storm Factory - reduce domain cost to two
Examine flux generation advantage for MF/Death compared to sylvan/elem
Training - increase domain cost or make temporary
Examine glory gaining cards in general, high potential for abuse
Tamed Frost Wyrm - good
Thistle Falcon - good
Claimed with Blood - increase to three domain
Reduce Lord of Chaos and Agent of Death to have one generic
Epicenter - at three domain should start with one vision

So Cylone and I agree on a number of things. I didn't notice any change to Beacon or Pine Ent though.
Author:  doiron [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: first impressions
tryste, I have to question your sanity:

"Caravan of Dreams - add "Cannot be the target of spells or abilities"
Examine glory gaining cards in general, high potential for abuse"

Caravan is already capable of super cheesy wins and you want to make it worse while acknowledging that glory gaining cards are too good?

Fairy Emissary is fine as is; if you reduce the cost of the ability you make her the best card in the game, giving you domain for free (as you suggest) or very, very cheaply otherwise. I'm amazed more people don't use her more to enable cheaper domain-ups. If I had any I'd pack as many as I could in any sylvan deck.

Storm Factory, I have to agree. It was bad before and now it's even worse. 2 flux just to move anything 1 space and scaling up after that is just bad.

Beacon got one hp knocked off (good). It still needs another level of domain to bring it in line with its rivals.

Why all the training hate? If you make it cost more, you need to increase the domain/cost of ascent too :P

Pine ent looks the same to me too.

Thunderhead change means elem are now even harder up for domain, but I guess it is a better card in the end..

Gossamer Palace should be 1 sylvan, 2 neutral domain or 2/1

Lord Zyngyth should be 3 elem domain

Epic vet should be 3 MF domain

Dag cannon is still terrible.

In general I feel 3 domain requirement cards should have more 2 race 1 neutral than 1 race 2 neutral requirements. Same for 2 domain, but it's not as bad as the 3's.

I generally agree with everything else above.
Author:  Sunyaku [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: first impressions
LOL. Think about it doiron... if you couldn't target Caravan with spells or abilities, YOU WOULDN'T be able to use it to get a glory stream... you couldn't planar void it, teleport it, isolated twister it, morph it, etc. etc. etc... b/c it would not be targetable.

(^_^)
Author:  jed [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: first impressions
Don't you think light of day is actually very good? It means you can drop a building anywhere. Drop your treents right in the mix. Negate anything that just happened etc, etc. It just seems like it makes so many spells more powerful.

Also the throne. Is it an auto include? Should I change it and weather vane?
Author:  cylone [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: first impressions
@Redflag: read what i wrote again, I'm yet to see a stagg survive 2turns, often doesnt live 2seconds. Disenchant is faction specific (lucky dwarves). I havent had much luck with gossamer (even if i like the woodland spies combo, +its a rare AND potentially teleporting to a foul obelisk isnt the best idea). Ley shift is very limited in use(really mostly for specific elemental decks. Very fun card though with fireballs heh).
Anyways if the change holds (3domain, i really like this) its still top tier card, you just dont automatically pack 3 in every deck... you pack 2 :) (i know i do)



@Tryste: Wowzers!! Fairy emissary is a really nice card, 1/3 for 3 flux and classic sylvan stats is a strong opening AND great domain booster. Dont really have an opinion on her but i gotta get me some.

Nuking caravan would be very uncool for the sole reason that its one of the few decks thats different than the classic(sometimes boring) land grab. It requires a very specific, multi domain deck which is usually unable to do anything else. Its also not hard to nullify, and is more of an auto-lose if the opponent knows youre playing it.

Pine ent had 3hp for awhile, its back to 4hp now.

Lord Z should be all elemental cost, he's pointless out of an all elemental deck. Like Greening and ugh,oh, something else lol.

OMFG Thunderhead Reach!! I lovez itz i lovez itz! Primarly because its so DIFFERENT than the standard drab buildings (just overtook Magnetite beacon on my list of wonderfull concepts).



@Jed: Light of Day is an ok card, but the problem is it competes with the likes of Windreader or 2sylvan weenies and even owl familiar. Sylvan is NOT lacking in great vision(most games you can see almost all the map). You migh as well make it cost more flux and domain but a permanent enchantment.

After messing with the likes of treetop dominion, the throne, etc. the cards are not broken in the new enviroment. Actually they certainly encourage "spicing" a deck with small amounts of cards of another color. They just get in the way of single colored decks. Also listen to Doiron, the three domain cards should be 2d+1x. This shuts down all abuse tightly.
Author:  doiron [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: first impressions
In my defense, "can't be the target of spells or abilities" excludes planar rift and arena, the two cheese ways of winning with caravan (they're both enchantments). Granted I should have made that clearer.

I generally agree with cy. Light of Day is good in theory, but if you already play the race with the best vision, a pricey non-perm solution isn't so hot.

Well, in terms of cheap domain, Treetop, Throne, and Vane are all quite good and might speed things up a bit too much. If autodraw pulls any of them, I'd say that throne is the worst of the bunch because it's so easy to take out. Alter is a little bit more pricey, but pays for the difference with one sac.. so it's not quite as quick, but can catch up to the others and leapfrog so it's more of a trade-off than a downside.

I'd also say Baron of Dellen should say "All Elves with range greater than 0 you control have +1 range while Baron is in play." Because really, how is it supposed to give range attacks to something like a goose tamer?
Author:  cylone [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: first impressions
Once had 2 Barons of Dellen in play and some archers and a bunch of elves. Wasnt pretty for my opponent. I concur with doiron.


I've taken the opportunity to test Dark Legion cards that rarely use,
and found some cards a bit lacking behind their similar in-faction counterparts:
- Treacherous Foundation seems a bit lackluster for its cost, maybe drop cost to 2flux or alternately have it also nuke the buildings special ability(including being a base).
- Balthasars Lash is eclipsed by Foul Obelisk, maybe give it range 3?

Furthermore:
- Impure Impulses - wtf? other than a combo with Mass Confussion, and some VERY limited circumstances no real use? Tried them with manticores, tanglers and a frost wurm to no avail cause the creatures activate first thing at the start of turn. Did sacrifice a tangler lol.
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