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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 12:08 am
Posts: 173
back to the deck makes it useless for constructed where no one draws their whole deck. It might be useful in limited, but it is a pretty big nerf and I think uncalled for so early in the life of the set.


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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:55 am
Posts: 138
Creeping Gloom would be a reasonably good card even without reusability.

For just 2 flux CG can finish off a damaged creature or doom a creature with 1 health in a way that it cannot be healed (no Blindweed, Fountain, Sklor, etc).

With reusability it is a card that can almost single handedly eliminate Sylvan from a game as nearly every Sylvan army is heavily dependent on creatures with 1 base health.

There may be ways to get around it: Sacrifice is great for DL and Sleet Mogi are inherently immune, but those are not ways available to Sylvan or MF (although MF at least take 2 or more CG's to kill for the most part.).


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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:58 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:51 am
Posts: 584
Location: Madison, WI
doiron wrote:
2 flux and shuffled back into the deck seems right, back to the hand mechanic is just too powerful for 2.


I like this solution as well. Although from my perspective it seems only slightly less of a nerf as increasing the cost to 3. The fact that it currently returns to your hand means that you can reuse it for discard abilities as well.

The current implementation could probably be nicely abused by a Dark Legion creature removal/discard deck, as the gloom helps you to maintain hand size.


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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:33 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:04 pm
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kash wrote:
back to the deck makes it useless for constructed where no one draws their whole deck. It might be useful in limited, but it is a pretty big nerf and I think uncalled for so early in the life of the set.


shuffled back into deck isn't the same as placed at the back of the deck.

what I proposed would make it somewhat likely that you'd draw it again. back of the deck means you likely wouldn't draw it again (as you noted).


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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:12 am
Posts: 270
It could go to top of deck instead of hand. Remember, this fixed Bishop as well, who was seriously broken before. Actually I'm amazed no one has suggested this yet.

Or alternatively (I think this one's better): keep it as it is, but replace "creeping gloom is returned to your hand" with "creeping gloom is returned to your hand and if you have at least 1 flux, you lose 1."

I agree it's too strong as it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:15 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:08 am
Posts: 18
I'm still not sold on how powerful this card is. I've been running 3 in a deck, and they are good. I thought they would be particularly good against Sylvan, but I still got toasted with them, and I realized why.

Yes, they eat up one health creatures. But at 2 flux each. Many, many 1 health creatures cost 1 flux. My opponent could cast saplings and tenderfoots for 1 each. I found that I just couldn't stay competitive killing these at a 1 flux loss, even if it returned to my hand. It's nice on a scout or thistle falcon, but I still just break even. A coldstream would cost 4 flux to kill!

They are incredibly useful when you get something bigger to 1 health and finish it off. Then you get the card back (unless the creature is healed, then you're stuck). But once it's back, the element of surprise is totally gone. Every opponent I've played has simply adjusted their strategy and been careful to keep more health, or to keep something up their sleave.

(As before, it's not hard to pull out a card that will take out 1, 2 or even 3 of these fully from the game). Even sylvan has ascent - played on your own creature would destroy 2 creeping glooms without a flux loss.

They are good but I don't think overpowered, compared to many other cards I've seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:55 am
Posts: 138
Used on a 1 cost creature in effect the player gets to draw a card for 1 flux, which is generally a great tradeoff, and that is in addition from the time gained from taking the creature out of play.
Thistle Falcons and Elven Scouts are 2 flux each...so you gain a card for no net flux cost.
Hell Cats and Wind Readers are 3 flux each...so you gain flux as well as a card.

Sure, Psychotic Break does more in a cast, but it's a 3 domain spell that isn't reusable. Cloudburst is only 1 flux, but not reusable and highly situational and it is still a great removal card.

That a player might even consider casting Ascent on their own creature to get rid of this shows how powerful this is (4 flux plus 1-3 for the creature to save a 1 base health creature for a net loss of 3-5 flux). A player can also only cast it when the opponent doesn't have 4 flux available for an immediate Ascent, giving a 4 flux advantage until used.

And yes, Chaos in general wreaks havoc on Sylvan right now as well. I don't think Sylvan is currently mono-viable except as an extreme rush deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:51 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:51 am
Posts: 584
Location: Madison, WI
I just got "glaped" (gloom raped) again in domain league tonight.

Even though you need two domain now, this is still a powerhouse for only 2 flux. I still feel that this card is overpowered. A lot of people were against raising the flux cost, so I propose implementing doiron's "shuffle back into deck" idea.

Recasting two or three of these every round is just about impossible to overcome. One solution to this is to raise the flux cost, the other is to not put it back into your hand. Heck, if we implement doiron's idea, you could even kick it back down to one domain, and that would be a vast improvement. The recastability every turn is absolutely killer.


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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 150
I would say Creeping Gloom is slightly worse than Drain Blood since its slower and more expensive with multiple use and doesn't heal your guys. I've been using it a lot in my DL deck and sometimes its really not great especially against bigger creatures with 4 or more max health. It seems to be most effective against sylvan decks and worst against other DL and Imperium decks.

I may regret this since i play creeping gloom but here's some cards you can use against it:
Sylvan cards that effective against creeping gloom:
    morph, lycantryopy, bear, arcane adjustment, restore natures balance, ascent, greening
Chaos cards effective against creeping gloom:
    interference, yarnaga's laboratory, kobald warparty, insatiable symbiote(maybe)
Elemental cards effective against creeping gloom:
    sleet mogi, sphere of radiance, refracting mist, reform
Mountain folk cards effective against creeping gloom:
    training, disenchant, negate, horns to hide, hex chaser
Dark Legion cards effective against creeping gloom:
    crypt doctor, nefarious research, lord of chaos, claimed with blood, altar of ix, death mark
Imperium cards effective against creeping gloom:
    anti-magic shell, missionary martyr, whisk away, xosan crusader, transcendence, etc...

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 Post subject: Re: Creeping Gloom
 Post Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:06 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:51 am
Posts: 584
Location: Madison, WI
Sure, I'll concede that there are "ways" to deal with the card in constructed play (although half of the ones you listed are really crappy... but I understand that you listed them because they are "technically" possibilities).

In several games I've had "big creatures" finished off by multiple glooms. If your opponent has more than one gloom in hand (especially in limited play), you're effectively locked out of combat for the rest of the game. If you get attacked or counterattacked, your creatures will be "glaped" to death one by one.

From my XP in TFW, if a card is overpowered in limited play, it generally means it needs balancing.


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